[PW] Project-Wombat-FM Digest, Vol 15, Issue 1

Mon Mar 5 10:22:06 PST 2007

This is, of course, what Benoit Mandelbrot pointed out in "How Long Is the 
Coast of Britain?  Statistical Self-Similarity and Fractional Dimension," 
Science, v. 155, pp. 636-638 (1967), a key paper in his development of the 
concept of fractals.

At 04:07 PM 3/1/2007, you wrote:
>Dear Barbara J. Bussart:
>         What you are looking for is called an "imponderable." This is a
>question that sounds reasonable, but the answer changes with the parameters
>of the question. "What is the tallest mountain?" for example, has three
>answers- Mt. Everest for height above sea level, Mauna Loa (spelling?) from
>underwater base to summit, and for the greatest distance from the center of
>the earth, Chimborazo in Ecuador.
>         Your answer, if you think about it, also has multiple and
>non-quantifiable answers. For coastal states, do you want the coastal length
>at high tide or at low tide? There would be significant differences- think
>about the California coastline and what only a few feet difference in length
>would mean along such a long coast? How far up a river mouth, on both sides,
>do you count for a river that enters the sea? Do you count islands, such as
>the Outer Banks of NC, and do you count the whole perimeter of the islands,
>or the mainline coast AND the island coasts? For those states on the
>Mississippi, how do you count a change in river channel?
>         So unless a state has established borders and straight lines, the
>question is an imponderable.
>         A better question would be an estimate of the area of a state in
>square miles, which is inaccurate but the results can be compared to other
>states with the same inaccuracy. Often, this is based on a smooth line along
>the three-mile limit of coastal waters, and thus avoids many of the accuracy
>problems outlined above. This information can be found in the Statistical
>Abstract of the US, Almanacs or other reference books. Obviously, it is
>easier to measure the volume of a flask (say, an upright 2 liter bottle of
>Pepsi-Cola) than it is to measure a volume for a foaming puddle of Pepsi on
>the sidewalk.
>         But I'm not even sure how you would accurately measure the coastline
>of Louisiana, either before Hurricane Katrina, or afterwards. Or if you
>could, who would put their name and professional reputation on a number that,
>by its nature, will change, perhaps even when being measured?
>         For the best discussion about how state borders were established, and
>when and how, see the US Geological Survey  Professional Paper #909, 1976,
>OCLC: 02273349.
>         FYI, the bar bets are the only thing worse to answer than
>imponderables. But everyone expects an easy and simple answer to complex
>questions, if only they ask the question simply enough.
>         Good luck in answering your patron. (Now, if only we could measure
>luck accurately, both good and bad. Instead of a meter stick, we could use a
>"Golden Rule" or "Golden Ruler" to measure the luck until we find the pot of
>gold. Would that start a whole new system of Leprechaun Mathematics?)
>
>Lee
>
>R. Lee Hadden
>Geospatial Information Library (GIL)
>Topographic Engineering Center
>ATTN: CEERD-TO-I (Hadden)
>7701 Telegraph Road
>Alexandria, VA 22315-3864
>(703) 428-9206
>Robert.L.Hadden at erdc.usace.army.mil
>
>See some of my writings, both online and on paper, at my author page at:
>http://www.librarything.com/author/haddenrobertlee
>
>-----Original Message-----
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:43:55 -0500
>From: "Barbara Bussart" <>
>Subject: Re: [PW] length of state borders
>To: list at project-wombat.org
>Message-ID:
>         <97646ee30703010843i7b364601p1f1e4acb22572ef0 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Hi -
>
>We have a patron wanting to know the circumference of each of the United
>States.  I have searched the internet until I'm blue in the face, and have
>found the length of the international boundaries between US/Canada and
>US/Mexico, and I was able to discover the length of each of the NSEW sides
>of North Dakota, but have had no success with the other states.  We queried
>Providence about one of their titles, but it did not contain this
>information.  Another library in our consortium said that the patron would
>have to go there to use their resource (I am assuming that there was no nice
>neat chart, and that the info would have to be culled for each state).
>Does anyone have a resource that contains a chart/list of this information
>that they can share with us?  Our patron does not want the area (easily
>found), or the coastline (also readily available).
>
>Thanks!
>
>Barbara J. Bussart
>Woonsocket Harris Public Library
>303 Clinton St.
>Woonsocket, RI 02895
>401-767-4124 (voice)
>40767-4120 (fax)
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Project Wombat
>list at project-wombat.org
>http://www.project-wombat.org/

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