[PW] ? "So much good in the worst of us" Quote (Quotation Query #789)

ADSGarson O'Toole adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com
Mon Dec 4 14:39:13 PST 2017


There was an entertaining response to Hoch's claim of plagiarism. A
correspondent found a thematically similar poem using different
vocabulary from Joaquin Miller, Poet of the Sierras. Double-check for
errors.

[ref] 1905 February 9, The Holton Recorder (The Recorder-Tribune),
(Untitled reprint of piece by M. L. Huff in Vermillion Times), Quote
Page 2, Column 2, Holton, Kansas. (Newspapers_com)[/ref]

https://www.newspapers.com/image/183970634/?terms=plagiarism

[Begin excerpt]
We see by our exchanges that Governor Hoch makes the charge of
plagiarism against Condon, chaplain of the lower house of Congress,
claiming that said chaplain used passages taken verbatim from the
"Thoughts we have been thinking'" column of the Marion Record.

The passage in question is as follows, "There is so much bad in the
best of us, and good in the worst of us that it does not behoove any
of us to talk about the rest of us." We do not wish to make a similar
charge against a man like Governor Hoch but we beg leave to call
attention to a passage from Songs of the Sierras by Juaquin Miller of
which that from the "Thoughts we have been thinking" is at best but a
paraphrase. Here it is,

"In men whom men condemn as ill,
I find so much of goodness still;
In men whom men pronounce divine,
I find so much of sin and blot;
I hesitate to draw the line.
Between the two where God has not."
— M. L. Huff in Vermillion Times.
[End excerpt]

Garson

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:01 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> The sometimes reliable Wikipedia has an entry for Edward W. Hoch which
> says that he was 17th Governor of Kansas.
>
> [Begin excerpt from Wikipedia]
> He bought the Marion County Record newspaper in 1874 and became a
> country editor.
> [End excerpt from Wikipedia]
>
> Based on this information and the newspaper article I would conjecture
> that Hoch first wrote his version of the poem in the "Marion County
> Record", since he was also the publisher of the newspaper.
>
> On the January 26, 1905 article Hoch said: "More than a year ago I
> thought that up, and printed it in the 'Thoughts We Have Been
> Thinking' column."
>
> Newspapers.com has many issues of "Marion Record" in the early 1900s,
> but I haven't been able to find a match.
> Garson
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:21 PM, d-lien University of Minnesota
> <d-lien at umn.edu> wrote:
>> Garson's post shows Hoch citing a slightly different wording, and in
>> fact the wording of this does often vary.  As a kid, I learned it as
>>
>> There is so much bad in the best of us
>> And so much good in the worst of us
>> That it ill behooves any of us
>> To find fault with the rest of us.
>>
>> ****************
>> Here's a couple of other earlyish (1907) variants wordings:
>>
>> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$b215929;view=1up;seq=74
>>
>> Medical Brief; A Monthly Journal of Scientific Medicine and Surgery;
>> v.33:1 (1905) / p52
>>
>> Try all things, and hold fast to the
>> good. There is good in all systems, but
>> no one system is all good. "There Is so
>> much good in the worst of us, and so
>> much bad In the best of us, it doesn't
>> behoove any of us to find fault with the
>> rest of us."—G. B. Clark, M. D., Armonk,
>> N. Y.
>>
>> **********************
>> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?view=image;size=100;id=mdp.39015070255149;page=root;seq=243;num=223
>>
>> The Southern California practitioner. v.20 1905. / p223
>>
>> Probably as busy a man intellectually
>> as there is in Chicago is Dr. George H.
>> Simmons, editor of the Journal of the
>> American Medical Association. Those
>> keen eyes and that quizzical yet genial
>> facial expression show alertness and in-
>> telligence. Just over his desk is the fol-
>> lowing: "There is so much that is bad
>> in the best of us, and so much that is
>> good in the worst of us that it hardly
>> behooves any of us to find fault with
>> the rest of us."
>>
>> ********************
>>
>> Dennis Lien / d-lien at umn.edu
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 1:14 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole
>> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Here is an interesting citation containing a claim by Hoch. Double
>>> check text and metadata.
>>>
>>> Date: January 26, 1905
>>> Newspaper: The Evening Times (Bay City Times)
>>> Newspaper Location: Bay City, Michigan
>>> Article: Prayer Was Stolen
>>> Quote Page  4
>>> Database: GenealogyBank
>>>
>>> [Begin excerpt]
>>> "Does a stolen prayer reach the clestial
>>> throne?" asked Governor Hoch. Then
>>> he continued"
>>>
>>> "According to the newspapers
>>> Chaplain Couden, of the lower house
>>> of congress, in his opening prayer
>>> said: "There is so much bad in the
>>> best of us and so much good in the
>>> worst of us that it hardly behooves
>>> any of us to talk about the rest of us."
>>>
>>> "Now, the fact is, that the chaplain
>>> stole that out of my Marion Record,
>>> or out of some paper that stole it out
>>> of the Record. More than a year ago
>>> I thought that up, and printed it in
>>> the 'Thoughts We Have Been Thinking'
>>> column. However, I am glad that
>>> the house chaplain knows a good
>>> thing when he sees it."
>>> [End excerpt]
>>>
>>> Garson
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu> wrote:
>>>> The Yale Book of Quotations includes the following poem under the name of Kansas Governor Edward W. Hoch:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is so much good in the worst of us,
>>>>
>>>> And so much bad in the best of us,
>>>>
>>>> That it hardly becomes any of us
>>>>
>>>> To talk about the rest of us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The attribution to Hoch is dated 1907.  I have now found a very similar quotation in the Brown County World (Hiawatha, Kan.), 14 Aug. 1896, without attribution to any individual.  What I need to complete the story is to find the earliest attribution to Hoch, and I would welcome citations pushing such attributions back as early as they can be found before 1907.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fred Shapiro
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> list at project-wombat.org
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